Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby c0nsumer » August 24th, 2019, 9:21 pm

There are white signs -- maybe 12" high and about 4" wide -- at every trail entrance. They tell you to go that way on the listed days of the week. Stop at the entrances to the trail and read all the visible signs and you'll see them. There are also periodic signs along the trails (after significant two track / service path crossings) where the signs also exist. If you see a white sign and you aren't certain, go back and look.

Note that if it's a clockwise day, ALL the trails run clockwise, so turn left at each intersection. Same with counter-clockwise, but then turn right.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby Mucky » August 24th, 2019, 10:56 pm

I will admit that I did not see any signs other than on the blue trail. I also wasn't looking for them, which makes them hard to find. The point is, there should be something in the main parking area. I knew which way to go, because I had asked someone. Others did not, so it must not be so obvious.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby jreyst » August 24th, 2019, 11:04 pm

I'm having a hard time understanding how it's hard to know which direction is which on each day. It's shown very clearly at every trailhead as long as you like... take a literal second to look. Leading into each section literally has a sign, right at the beginning, that indicates which direction to go on which days. I'm really not sure how much more could be done to make it more clear.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby Mikeyb64 » August 24th, 2019, 11:22 pm

As c0nsumer said, every single major trail intersection has directional signage, sometimes two signs (two-track, emergency route, social trails, etc). Every half mile there is milage and emergency signage on 4x4 posts. There is probably more signage at DTE than the next 100 miles of trail. We can't make people see the signs but the signage is out there.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby DynoDon » August 25th, 2019, 4:31 am

Doesn't the KISS principle apply here,, (Keep It Simple Stupid),, read the signs at the start, and at every intersection on the trail, they are there for a reason, The days with a T (Tuesday, Thursday, SaTurday) go counter clockwise, the other days (Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday), trails go clockwise, (hikers, runner, skiers go the other direction) (clockwise is right, counter clockwise is left for people that only read digital clocks). IF you can't remember which day it is, look at your phone, or go home an start over, or just ask someone, IF you forgot your glasses, and can't read, ask someone, IF you don't speak english, or read english, (no help here for you here, you can't read english). Maybe the signs should be put up on the Kiosk in 5 languages, (with extra large letters, incase you forgot your glasses), directions to the dump station should be in 5 languages too, a calendar, a phone number to call if you are confused, directions to find Facebook, or MMBA website so you can find out info like direction of the day. Or maybe the Kiosks should be kept simple so as not to confuse the people that don't read them anyway. Just go out, and ride, you'll find out your going the wrong way when you hit someone, push them off the trail, or they tell you you are going the wrong way. Some people just go the wrong way because they like the flow better that way. (Thats STUPID)
Last edited by DynoDon on August 26th, 2019, 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby c0nsumer » August 25th, 2019, 8:34 am

Mucky wrote:I will admit that I did not see any signs other than on the blue trail. I also wasn't looking for them, which makes them hard to find. The point is, there should be something in the main parking area. I knew which way to go, because I had asked someone. Others did not, so it must not be so obvious.


There is something in the main parking area. Last time I was there the kiosk had a sign saying which way to go. Then you ride down about 500' of access road to the actual start of the trail, where you can go either left or right. Directly next to the trail, either of those directions, are signs to inform you of whether you are going the correct way or not.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby barrybs » August 25th, 2019, 8:56 am

If you want to ride blue without riding green you can park at the Cassidy road lot.
I will double check all kiosks for directional signage.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby Mucky » August 25th, 2019, 11:27 am

c0nsumer wrote:
Mucky wrote:I will admit that I did not see any signs other than on the blue trail. I also wasn't looking for them, which makes them hard to find. The point is, there should be something in the main parking area. I knew which way to go, because I had asked someone. Others did not, so it must not be so obvious.


There is something in the main parking area. Last time I was there the kiosk had a sign saying which way to go. Then you ride down about 500' of access road to the actual start of the trail, where you can go either left or right. Directly next to the trail, either of those directions, are signs to inform you of whether you are going the correct way or not.


There is nothing in the main parking area about direction of the trails. Again I wasn't looking for anything that mentioned trail direction, so I didn't see them. Again, I was not the only one. As far as I know, this is the only trail in the SE area that changes the direction. Not knowing this, I would just ride to the trail head and keep going. Not paying attention to a small sign a foot of the ground. You can all say that it is clearly marked, but the truth is that it obviously not. Like I said, I was not the only one yesterday that didn't know about the change of direction. And I would bet it happens on every weekend, and possibly on a daily basis. It appears that those of you claiming that the signage is clearly marked, have ridden there before and you know what to look for. First timers have no idea.

You can all argue that there are signs and they are easy to see, but when riders are still going the wrong way ( we encountered 2 on the blue loop) it is obvious that the signs are not easily seen.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby c0nsumer » August 25th, 2019, 6:11 pm

Here's a photo of what the signs look like. They are definitely more than a foot off the ground, and at every trail entrance: https://scontent.fyip1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5E0B035F

Here's another non-FB link: https://www.hikingproject.com/photo/703 ... ates-daily

If folks are missing these, I'm unclear on how they are even figuring out what loop they are on... Signs are on the same posts, and the direction signs have to be 15x larger than the loop label.

EDIT:

Not knowing this, I would just ride to the trail head and keep going.


There is no "keep going" at DTE. At every trail entrance a choice needs to be made to turn left or right. Then, each direction has a sign. It's a pretty good layout/system.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby Mucky » August 25th, 2019, 7:31 pm

So I went again today, and yes the signs are visible, when you know they are there. I just look for the trail sign posts to see which trail and where the arrow is pointing, just like I would at Stoney. I wouldn't be looking for a white sign to say what days to ride what direction. I just wouldn't stop to read every sign. Most wouldn't. And I shouldn't have to stop.
Let me repeat myself again, I went the right way, others didn't and my daughter was forced of the trail. I don't want to get into a *beep* match with everyone. Yes the signs are there and are easy to see, if you are looking for them
It's very simple, there needs to be info at the parking areas that indicate Trail direction and on what days. If I saw that, I would have looked for the signs out on the trail.
One other issue I noticed today was the sign posts coming from green to the blue/green interchange. When coming from green there is a post that points straight to continue on green. This is before the kiosk. There is also a post that indicate blue is to the left, which is behind the kiosk. There is another post to the front left of the kiosk that has a green arrow pointing left toward entrance to ride blue on Tue/Thur/Sat. That could also lead to someone riding the wrong trail in the wrong direction
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby WICCMB » August 26th, 2019, 10:10 am

If you are in the parking lot looking at the map, you cannot say there is no signage telling you which way to go! The trail direction / day indicator is right there at the map! And again it is shown at the entrance to the singletrack....literally at EVERY entrance to the singletrack (even when coming into the trail not from a parking lot), and at EVERY intersection, and again at multiple spots throughout the trail. You would have to be blind or willfully ignorant not to see these signs.

As to people going the wrong way between the main parking lot off M52, and the Big Kame loop (blue)....this is caused by people willfully disobeying the trail direction for their own selfish purposes. If you only want to ride blue without having to ride any other trail (such as the green loop), then you should park at the Cassidy Rd parking lot, which has direct unfettered access to Big Kame.

For the record, there is a shortcut to get to the Blue loop from the M52 parking lot on clockwise days (and back to the M52 parking lot from Blue on counter-clockwise days) without having to ride all of Green. Unfortunately, there are some people that just don't care and will still go the incorrect direction on Green because it's shorter than the "shortcut".

Here's how you do the shortcut to Blue:
From the parking lot, ride past the gate/kiosk towards the Green loop singletrack, but continue PAST the singletrack entrance. You will find yourself riding along the edge of a farmer's field. After a short distance, you will drop right onto the Green trail going in the correct direction to get to Blue. You will still have to ride a small part of Green, but it is much less than the full 5 mile loop.). On counter-clockwise days, you can exit off of Green at this same point to get back to the parking lot.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby acedeuce802 » August 26th, 2019, 10:42 am

DynoDon wrote:The days with a T (Tuesday, Thursday, SaTurday) go clockwise, the other days (Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday), trails go counter clockwise, (hikers, runner, skiers go the other direction) (clockwise is right, counter clockwise is left for people that only read digital clocks)

Might want to edit that for those reading through. Tuesday, Thursday, SaTurday go counTerclockwise. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday go clockwise.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby DynoDon » August 26th, 2019, 12:15 pm

acedeuce802 wrote:
DynoDon wrote:The days with a T (Tuesday, Thursday, SaTurday) go counter clockwise, the other days (Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday), trails go clockwise, (hikers, runner, skiers go the other direction) (clockwise is right, counter clockwise is left for people that only read digital clocks)

Might want to edit that for those reading through. Tuesday, Thursday, SaTurday go counTerclockwise. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday go clockwise.


OPPS,, fixed..
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby poirier » August 26th, 2019, 9:44 pm

Mucky wrote:So I went again today, and yes the signs are visible, when you know they are there. I just look for the trail sign posts to see which trail and where the arrow is pointing, just like I would at Stoney. I wouldn't be looking for a white sign to say what days to ride what direction. I just wouldn't stop to read every sign. Most wouldn't. And I shouldn't have to stop.
Let me repeat myself again, I went the right way, others didn't and my daughter was forced of the trail. I don't want to get into a *beep* match with everyone. Yes the signs are there and are easy to see, if you are looking for them
It's very simple, there needs to be info at the parking areas that indicate Trail direction and on what days. If I saw that, I would have looked for the signs out on the trail.
One other issue I noticed today was the sign posts coming from green to the blue/green interchange. When coming from green there is a post that points straight to continue on green. This is before the kiosk. There is also a post that indicate blue is to the left, which is behind the kiosk. There is another post to the front left of the kiosk that has a green arrow pointing left toward entrance to ride blue on Tue/Thur/Sat. That could also lead to someone riding the wrong trail in the wrong direction


Are you using Stony as an example of GOOD signage?!? How large are the arrows at stony? You can see them at speed? I need your eye doctor.

There's an arrow and the DAY the trail goes that direction. It's idiot proof. err. never mind.
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Re: Poto: DTE Energy Foundation Trail (Waterloo)

Postby c0nsumer » August 26th, 2019, 10:07 pm

poirier wrote:Are you using Stony as an example of GOOD signage?!? How large are the arrows at stony? You can see them at speed? I need your eye doctor.

There's an arrow and the DAY the trail goes that direction. It's idiot proof. err. never mind.


There's arrows at Stony?!?
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