Western: Yankee Springs

For posting trail-specific conditions and problems

Postby paydirt_07 » April 13th, 2008, 5:22 pm

Guppie wrote:Anybody going to ride Yankee today? Let me know how it drained.


Rode it this afternoon and it is in great shape, maybe a couple minor wet spots but nothing to worry about. This next weeks' weather should dry everything out perfectly for the TT next Sunday. 8)
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Re: Fall line and sustainability

Postby Geterin Diaz » April 13th, 2008, 6:53 pm

glennd357 wrote:I have to think there are natural ways to keep "fall line" hills. These hill are what add character to a trail and make it interesting. I've not seen evidence of any technique other than routing around a hill with twisting turns. If a few years from now, that all Yankee is, I will be bummed. Everytime I hear "sustainability", I cringe. I guess I might not be qualified to ask this question since I didn't graduate from the all knowing trail school.

"Sustainability" is the flavor of the Kool-Aid that they serve at trail school dude. :wink:

You may have realized in this thread what kind of reaction you get from these people when you question them. Although this time around it's been pretty mild, they do tend to get a little high and mighty and will tell you how wrong you are. Crammer like to run his mouth and say he had sex with your mother, but that's Crammer, he's a little dense and un-creative.

Any way dude, enjoy whats there, explore beyond what you see in front of you, there are plenty of places in the area to ride that have not been dummied up yet. :wink: :wink:
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Re: Fall line and sustainability

Postby cramer » April 13th, 2008, 7:19 pm

Geterin Diaz wrote:Crammer like to run his mouth and say he had sex with your mother, but that's Crammer, he's a little dense and un-creative.


Why can't you quit me???

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Postby Ninja Pirate » April 13th, 2008, 7:55 pm

OK SO I ACTUALLY RODE THERE TODAY!

And the conditions were pretty good. There were a few patches of mud here and there but nothing major. Was a bit cold though. Can't wait for the race next sunday!
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Postby John_H » April 14th, 2008, 9:40 am

mtbyker wrote:When did the land managers at yankee start complaining about the rooty ups and downs? They have been there for about 15 years. It's too bad they have a problem with it now, because fast ups and downs are what Yankee is all about. Oh well, we have to do what we have to do I guess.......

Actually, the DNR took pictures of some nasty washed out sections in the early 90's. They brought them to my attention when I was chapter president then. They just said that those sections were something they didn't want to see and were going to keep an eye on them to see if the sections got worse (more washed out). We rerouted some of those in the mid 90's - after we finally learned a bit more about trail construction and care.

I'm not picking on you Neil, just chiming in on this topic. People complaining about leaving some of the nasty sections need to think about what they would look like after many more years of erosion. They may be cool tough sections at one time, but if we didn't address them they eventually get to be seriously bad with waist deep sand at the bottom. There were times many years ago that long sections of the trail had to be walked because the sand washed down was so bad. I know there are still some sand pits now, but it's nothing like it was back 10 years or so.

Thinking back on Yankee over the years brings back a lot of memories. I have had to cut back the past couple of years with 2 children now, but I'll be back. I have a lot of experience (bad and good) with Yankee going back to working on original trail construction in 1989. I wasn't the very first - that was Mark Cramer and Bob Larson, but I worked with them. We had very limited knowledge of what to do and had no idea the trail would become today. To give you an idea of how some of it was proposed... Bob Larson was a pro trials rider. I remember one downhill we put in on a trail building day and when it was done the first rider went down it - it was so steep and 90 degree turn at bottom. He crashed hard and broke his frame in half. We kind of scratched our heads... hmmm... uhhhhh, maybe we should look at a different route :shock:

I wish we would have kept a timeline of what we did at Yankee for trail work. Up until the last couple years, I was involved in every work day out there. I could always do a slow group tour ride and point out some of the old trail. Maybe something I could do for the Saturday before the time trial. :) "On your left you can barely see the original trail where it washed out to a ravine 4 feet deep before we finally rerouted" "On your right you can still see remnants of the ancient so called erosion control rubber water bars and rubber mats" "Up ahead is the descent where so many people had to get hauled out from injuries. The EMS complained to the DNR about being called out too many times to the same spot to get injured mtn bikers". (that really did happen).

I'm looking forward to getting out there this weekend and volunteering.
Thanks for everyones hard work on putting the time trial on, and to the racers coming out to support the trail!
- John
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Postby Guppie » April 14th, 2008, 9:46 am

Three years ago, around the 5 mile mark, the trail was pretty nasty. I went over the bars on a rough down hill part and knocked myself out cold. Thankfully I was with somebody. That area was rerouted either last year or the year before.

Yankee could use another LONG climb. Doesn't need to be steep, but long. Climbs with switchbacks, which would really work the force/power in your legs. I love climbing. :)
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Re: I see

Postby number2 » April 14th, 2008, 10:15 am

glennd357 wrote:
Guppie wrote:I understand his concern, however unless your out there offering creative inspiration and actually moving dirt, the best thing to say is "thank you for taking care of the trail I love so much"



I can understand this reaction. I've read (quite a few times now) that the TCs make all the calls, and that trail decisions can't be done by a committee approach. So they are just looking for some warm bodies to implement their plan. I just feel that somebody should say something. I think many people feel too guilty to say anything, so they just praise the effort. In the last 3 years that I have been riding at Yankee, there have been at least 3 tough (challenging and fun) sections that have been completely removed. Other than removing the downed trees, I can't say for sure that the trail is better off.
It is called dumbing down and the reason for it is so less skilled riders don't have to get skills.
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Re: I see

Postby jonvenlet » April 14th, 2008, 10:57 am

number2 wrote:
glennd357 wrote:
Guppie wrote:I understand his concern, however unless your out there offering creative inspiration and actually moving dirt, the best thing to say is "thank you for taking care of the trail I love so much"



I can understand this reaction. I've read (quite a few times now) that the TCs make all the calls, and that trail decisions can't be done by a committee approach. So they are just looking for some warm bodies to implement their plan. I just feel that somebody should say something. I think many people feel too guilty to say anything, so they just praise the effort. In the last 3 years that I have been riding at Yankee, there have been at least 3 tough (challenging and fun) sections that have been completely removed. Other than removing the downed trees, I can't say for sure that the trail is better off.
It is called dumbing down and the reason for it is so less skilled riders don't have to get skills.


go to traildays and meetings, get involved, armor up the tough fall line trail; do something rather than just say something.
Last edited by jonvenlet on April 14th, 2008, 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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miss

Postby glennd357 » April 14th, 2008, 11:12 am

Guppie wrote:Three years ago, around the 5 mile mark, the trail was pretty nasty. I went over the bars on a rough down hill part and knocked myself out cold. Thankfully I was with somebody. That area was rerouted either last year or the year before.

Yankee could use another LONG climb. Doesn't need to be steep, but long. Climbs with switchbacks, which would really work the force/power in your legs. I love climbing. :)


I miss that downhill. It took 1.5 years to navigate it properly. It was replaced with a section anyone can do :(

I think I have every right to speak my opinion. You may not agree with it, but I can see that there are more people who might feel similar. The "adopt a trail section" would be a good way to get other interested.
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Re: miss

Postby dennismurphy » April 14th, 2008, 11:47 am

glennd357 wrote:The "adopt a trail section" would be a good way to get other interested.


the "adopt a section" initiative is designed to take the load of work that is needed for routine maintenance away from trail days- so that major trail days work can concentrate on the big picture: yes, SUSTAINABILITY and implementing NEW TRAIL

I don't foresee that "adopting a section" becomes "adopt an eroded section"
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Postby dennismurphy » April 14th, 2008, 12:59 pm

Here's another thought


we cannot keep a section that is eroding continuously simply because it is a challenge to some people- though an extreme challenge DOES mean we should create a ride-around for those that cannot do the obstacle/drop/etc.

Interestingly, it seems that many of the types of challenges that are complained about being removed are actually contstructed in a skill's parks (such as Jason did at Cannonsburg)

which may be a solution at some locations...there may be ways to keep such drops and challenges (a fall line drop -even one with bumps and character), but they are NOT CHEAP- such drops could be accomodated- though at great expense- with the implementation of armored fall lines - i.e. take away the need for sand to run off (erode) and the same "terrain" is duplicated by stone

a perfect example of this is the near vertical drop on the red loop at Ft Custer. By armoring it they keep that challenging drop and still provide an alternative for less experienced riders. there's no reason a challenging section could not be armored and include bumps and outcroppings that simulate rocks and roots in somewhat natural patter..

but to haul all that stone and other bullwark material costs money in terms of materials, time to install, permission of the land manager, etc... it also goes against the "natural look" approach. But it's certainly not impossible.

If there's a section you think you want to keep that might be a target for re-route due to erosion- you can put together a plan, pursue materials (perhaps soliciting donations) and communicate with the TC involved. That won't mean you GET exactly what you want, but it's an opportunity
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Postby number2 » April 14th, 2008, 1:02 pm

Guppie wrote:Three years ago, around the 5 mile mark, the trail was pretty nasty. I went over the bars on a rough down hill part and knocked myself out cold. Thankfully I was with somebody. That area was rerouted either last year or the year before.

Yankee could use another LONG climb. Doesn't need to be steep, but long. Climbs with switchbacks, which would really work the force/power in your legs. I love climbing. :)
There are alot of big climbs around yankee, you just have to find them.
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Postby Geterin Diaz » April 14th, 2008, 2:45 pm

number2 wrote:
Guppie wrote:Three years ago, around the 5 mile mark, the trail was pretty nasty. I went over the bars on a rough down hill part and knocked myself out cold. Thankfully I was with somebody. That area was rerouted either last year or the year before.

Yankee could use another LONG climb. Doesn't need to be steep, but long. Climbs with switchbacks, which would really work the force/power in your legs. I love climbing. :)
There are alot of big climbs around yankee, you just have to find them.

It is a big wide world out there. Look beyond the norm. Explore.

Don't listen to the status quo. Get lost out there, find your way back.

Don't buy a state park sticker. Park far away, ride in, you may be suprised at what you find. :D :D :D
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Postby Guppie » April 14th, 2008, 2:47 pm

number2 wrote:
Guppie wrote:Three years ago, around the 5 mile mark, the trail was pretty nasty. I went over the bars on a rough down hill part and knocked myself out cold. Thankfully I was with somebody. That area was rerouted either last year or the year before.

Yankee could use another LONG climb. Doesn't need to be steep, but long. Climbs with switchbacks, which would really work the force/power in your legs. I love climbing. :)
There are alot of big climbs around yankee, you just have to find them.


Yes there are, but riding bandit trails is not a positive thing. It would be AWESOME if we could tap into Devils Soup Bowl some how, but being a local 'attraction' that will never happen.
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Postby Guppie » April 14th, 2008, 3:03 pm

Don't buy a state park sticker


http://www.mmba.org/viewtopic.php?t=71125
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