Poto: Potawatomi

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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby TheLoneRider » February 26th, 2020, 11:13 am

Paul Brown wrote:Water does far more damage than any user group (sans the EQ's or motorized vehicles). Poto is old school fall line design except for the reroutes. Anybody who thinks mtb's caused the 8 foot deep trenches which used to be single track is mistaken.

Not if the trail's crown is properly maintain and run off is properly managed.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Paul Brown » February 26th, 2020, 11:25 am

"
MTB community" as being nothing but a sort of a "chain gang" and
more towards stewards of trails.


I ride Poto often. I don't get this vibe from other users. 90% positive encounters.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Paul Brown » February 26th, 2020, 11:27 am

TheLoneRider wrote:
Paul Brown wrote:Water does far more damage than any user group (sans the EQ's or motorized vehicles). Poto is old school fall line design except for the reroutes. Anybody who thinks mtb's caused the 8 foot deep trenches which used to be single track is mistaken.

Not if the trail's crown is properly maintain and run off is properly managed.


Yea I was referring to how the Poto was formed initially (ie straight up fall lines) and am speaking to the bulk of the damage over the years.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby TheLoneRider » February 26th, 2020, 11:35 am

TheLoneRider wrote:
Paul Brown wrote:Water does far more damage than any user group (sans the EQ's or motorized vehicles). Poto is old school fall line design except for the reroutes. Anybody who thinks mtb's caused the 8 foot deep trenches which used to be single track is mistaken.

Not if the trail's crown is properly maintain and run off is properly managed.

excuse me,
I do not know why I am using the word proper,
I generally do not like that word
as its connotation seems to come off
as that there is only one way,
like only the right way,
when what I really mean is
"in an appropriate manner"

&&& 8' that's not run off trench,
that's practically a tourist attraction
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby DynoDon » February 26th, 2020, 11:40 am

The 17 mile Boy Scout built trail was built with out much thought to erosion, its now 18.5 miles with plenty of reroutes, I've ridden Poto since the early 80's, That 8 foot trench about a mile in from Hankard rd was there in the late 1960's when I cross country skied Poto, it really hasn't grown much since then either. The damage that is happening now comes from people that want the trail like DTE, and come out trying to fix something that isn't broken. Roots and rocks are part of Michigan trails, they hold trails together, skills are all thats needed to ride it, not saws/shovels/axes, Poto use to look a lot like DTE in the old days, DTE will look more like Poto someday. Get skills not saws.. Poto is still one of the best trails in the State as is, it always has been.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby mtbdudex » February 26th, 2020, 1:47 pm

DynoDon wrote:The 17 mile Boy Scout built trail was built with out much thought to erosion, its now 18.5 miles with plenty of reroutes, I've ridden Poto since the early 80's, That 8 foot trench about a mile in from Hankard rd was there in the late 1960's when I cross country skied Poto, it really hasn't grown much since then either. The damage that is happening now comes from people that want the trail like DTE, and come out trying to fix something that isn't broken. Roots and rocks are part of Michigan trails, they hold trails together, skills are all thats needed to ride it, not saws/shovels/axes, Poto use to look a lot like DTE in the old days, DTE will look more like Poto someday. Get skills not saws.. Poto is still one of the best trails in the State as is, it always has been.


100% concur here!
To answer lone dude, Poto has not changed much since 1995, 25 years.
Sure, the geoweb bandaids are slightly worse, but overall the trail is shall I say it ..... dialed.

Also - yes I do look at a persons profile , to vet them out, as some lurkers register a few names at different emails and sit idle, until one is locked out. Then a few months later come back under different guise.


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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby crustaceous_flora » February 27th, 2020, 12:39 am

The reason Poto is so good is because it actually has roots, drops, and some rocks down some fast fall lines. And then some good climbing throughout. Cutting roots and moving rocks just dumbs down the trail. I'm into fall line downhills, keep Poto as it is. And i like that huge trenxh. It's cool to ride through.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Wingo » February 27th, 2020, 8:09 am

I think it's worth mentioning that exposed roots are also present on foot traffic only trails. To assume that mountain bikes are the only cause of exposed roots is quite a leap.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby c0nsumer » February 27th, 2020, 8:46 am

Wingo wrote:I think it's worth mentioning that exposed roots are also present on foot traffic only trails. To assume that mountain bikes are the only cause of exposed roots is quite a leap.


Exposed roots are mostly because of the combination of trail surface compaction and the roots (and vines -- not all are roots) growing and getting bigger and beginning to poke out.

Sometimes cutting out roots is the right thing to do, other times leaving them is. There is no blanket "leave the roots!" or "cut out the roots!" or "re-bury the roots!" that is right. It's all very dependent on the section of trail in question.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby SteveF » February 27th, 2020, 8:55 am

TheLoneRider wrote:
SteveF wrote:[
Yes I'm aware. I'm taking the guy at face value that he doesn't intend to troll and explaining to him why it might seem that he is.

Thank you...



Don't mistake my comments for support for your position or suggestions. I don't agree with your assessment of the conditions of mtb trails or the cause for those conditions. I don't agree with your suggestions of what to do about it. And I don't agree with your conclusion that the DTE trail project was somehow stealing from other trails.

There's a county park trail near me with extensive root exposure and wear. It's never been open to mountain bikes. Dirt is a friable surface and will wear away from any kind of use or simple weather and time. It's the nature of nature.

Poto is relatively stable for the sort of trail it is, and it is a hoot to ride and travels through a beautiful scenic landscape. An attack on access to it for mountain bikes was literally one of the primary reasons for the creation of the MMBA. Hikers tried to get us banned from the trail back in the day, and the MMBA was formed to combat that effort. Since the MMBA was created to keep trails like Poto open to bikes, to suggest that they should support closing ANY trails for some vague, unspecified and timetable-free "fixes" is to suggest that they do absolutely the opposite of the very thing they were created to do. Any such closure would certainly become perpetual and as much as permanent. It's an absurd suggestion.

The DTE trail was created with money raised specifically for a new, professionally built mtb-oriented trail. That money would not have become available for repairs. Nor would the manpower to perform those repairs. There's simply no relationship between the money collected for that project and the sort of projects you suggest. We'd probably get sued for misappropriation of funds were we to try to use that money elsewhere.

As for how we are seen by other trail users. It is an ongoing problem, I don't think it will ever entirely go away. It's up to every trail user of all sorts to watch out for and minimize their impact on the fun of every other trail user. I do my best, as do most people I meet. When someone is unhappy about my presence I try to kill them with kindness and get away from them as quickly as I safely can. I can't do anything about their attitude except try not to let it ruin my day.

I'm not the Steve you mention regarding any sort of survey or say at Poto. I'm just an old guy that likes to ride my bike in the woods.
Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby DynoDon » February 27th, 2020, 9:08 am

c0nsumer wrote:
Wingo wrote:I think it's worth mentioning that exposed roots are also present on foot traffic only trails. To assume that mountain bikes are the only cause of exposed roots is quite a leap.


Exposed roots are mostly because of the combination of trail surface compaction and the roots (and vines -- not all are roots) growing and getting bigger and beginning to poke out.

Sometimes cutting out roots is the right thing to do, other times leaving them is. There is no blanket "leave the roots!" or "cut out the roots!" or "re-bury the roots!" that is right. It's all very dependent on the section of trail in question.


ANY Roots/Trees/Rocks/altering lines/creating features are not for any random person with a saw/axe/shovel, or good intentions to alter, its something for the TC/DNR to decide, until then it is a Feature of the trail/Michigan.
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When the second one was built !!!
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby TheLoneRider » February 28th, 2020, 3:04 pm

SteveF wrote:
TheLoneRider wrote:
SteveF wrote:[
Yes I'm aware. I'm taking the guy at face value that he doesn't intend to troll and explaining to him why it might seem that he is.

Thank you...



Don't mistake my comments for support for your position or suggestions.

If it was not clear, my thanks was just referring to being taken at face value

SteveF wrote:I don't agree with your assessment of the conditions of mtb trails or the cause for those conditions. I don't agree with your suggestions of what to do about it.

Fair enough,
as I indicated earlier, I do not expect to become friends by echoing anyone else's or group's point of view.
I do not expect the reciprocal either.

SteveF wrote:And I don't agree with your conclusion that the DTE trail project was somehow stealing from other trails.

#1 A slight is not the same as stealing, it is more of a snub, a [perhaps unintended] disrespectful (not necessarily the most mindful) action.
#2 I've since had a look at the DTE FT website, facebook, some youtube vidoes, etc.
While I am of the sort to say it is best to take care of what you already have,
I see my previous input about the project is largely mistaken.
I had the impression the DTE was a mountain bike only facility.
I see much of what I spouted off about is actually happening over there, and more.
I really like what I am seeing with the Facebook posts and that there is a mechanism
in place where when the trail may be soft, it can be formally closed until it firms up.
It is awesome that the trail is being groomed in the winter with the intent to support
shared access by fat bike, cross country skis, or snow shoes ( as you may choose ).

SteveF wrote:There's a county park trail near me with extensive root exposure and wear.

Sounds to me like the maintenance for those trails is in neglect.
I get resources are scarce. That in many cases for what is left of the soil,
the exposed roots and rocks are about all that is keeping it from getting worse.
In many cases, the the trail stabilizes at a degree where use at its original intent
is satisfactory. But when there is ad-hoc trail maintenance occurring as I am
learning about on the Poto, by my standards ( not in conclusion ), I'd say the
trail is in disrepair ( likely the trail is not in the shape conducive to some use
that predated the arrival of mountain bikes ).

SteveF wrote:It's never been open to mountain bikes.
Dirt is a friable surface and will wear away from any kind of use or simple weather and time. It's the nature of nature.

In most cases, wheeled travel will wear down a trail's tread significantly faster than foot traffic.
In order to keep water flowing off trail without adverse erosion, in general, it needs to be maintained.

SteveF wrote:Poto is relatively stable for the sort of trail it is,

Albiet damaged enough some lower common denominator user(s)
( not lessor individual, just less intense )
are performing some ad-hoc maintenance.

SteveF wrote:and it is a hoot to ride and travels through a beautiful scenic landscape.

I saw that in the Youtube videos by BikingWithBob ( or whomever).
After watching those videos, I can feel for you guys.
Other than perhaps some crazy reconstruction from a 3-d scan,
it would be next to impossible to design and build challenging sections like those on the Poto.

In spite of still being able to say I see a damaged trail, there is something
organic about those challenging trail sections I saw in the videos of Poto versus DTE.
( I in fact like to ride similar fall line aligned descents and ascents, just not quite
. that challenging nor am I as aggressive. )

DTE also looks like a fun place to ride, but from what
I am seeing in the videos, the DTE gives me more of a video game type of feel
( except you can still bust you head).

SteveF wrote: An attack on access to it for mountain bikes was literally one of the primary reasons for the creation of the MMBA. Hikers tried to get us banned from the trail back in the day,

Well, by tradition ( and construction ), it was a hiking trail,
how does having to share the trails with mountain bikes
enhance a hiker's experience?
It is good to see Poto helping bring something very big
to the table by its participation in the DTE FT project.
I bet if such a project were possible 40 years ago,
the resistance would have been less.

SteveF wrote:and the MMBA was formed to combat that effort.

"Combat",
interesting word choice,
using it seems like it would escalate any conflict
as oppose to help lead towards resolution.
( that's not to say that I do not ever use some non-optimal wording )

SteveF wrote:Since the MMBA was created to keep trails like Poto open to bikes, to suggest that they should support closing ANY trails for some vague, unspecified and timetable-free "fixes" is to suggest that they do absolutely the opposite of the very thing they were created to do. Any such closure would certainly become perpetual and as much as permanent.

Oh, any possible trail closure would not need to be that fatalistic.
To be fair, it should be stipulate against achieving some remedy
that satisfies the desires of all the various trail users at least
to the point that there is virtually no temptation to perform
ad-hoc trail maintenance.
To be realistic, a plan would likely be drafted whereby the trouble
spots are addressed section by section over a number of years while
mountain bike access is afforded.
(hopefully in a way that maintains the portions you like to ride)

SteveF wrote:It's an absurd suggestion.

awe come on,
"That's just like, your opinion, man"

SteveF wrote:The DTE trail was created with money raised specifically for a new, professionally built mtb-oriented trail. That money would not have become available for repairs. Nor would the manpower to perform those repairs. There's simply no relationship between the money collected for that project and the sort of projects you suggest. We'd probably get sued for misappropriation of funds were we to try to use that money elsewhere.

Under the pretext the funds were solicited, you are right.
I was attempting to suggest that the vision of the foundation / project could have been broader from the get go.
From what I am learning, the DTE project is a great start and I suspect the PotoMBA has an interest in achieving,
whether by new construction and / or restoration, similar results for the other trails where you all typically share
with the other trail users.

SteveF wrote:As for how we are seen by other trail users. It is an ongoing problem, I don't think it will ever entirely go away.

DTE is strong move in the right direction, more work in kind has the potential to eventually largely remedy the issues
with trail use conflict.

SteveF wrote: It's up to every trail user of all sorts to watch out for and minimize their impact on the fun of every other trail user. I do my best, as do most people I meet. When someone is unhappy about my presence I try to kill them with kindness and get away from them as quickly as I safely can. I can't do anything about their attitude except try not to let it ruin my day.

hey, finally something we can just about 100% totally agree on.

SteveF wrote:I'm not the Steve you mention regarding any sort of survey or say at Poto.

Ok then, so no thanks to you concerning that.

SteveF wrote:I'm just an old guy that likes to ride my bike in the woods.

I hope you may continue to do so for many years to come and wish you well,
as I do all the other readers of this thread, for now it is time to get back
outside and enjoy it (on your fat bike, xc skis, snow shoes, or whatever winter gear
have you ), as I suspect this latest blast of winter weather has afforded awesome
winter season trail conditions not only in my backyard, but all across SE MI.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby mtbdudex » February 29th, 2020, 4:33 pm

LoneRider, got it, you have an agenda, your clear on that.

Come to your local MMBA meetings, get face time, show your activism in physical setting.
It’s getting old in a forum thread.


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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby c0nsumer » February 29th, 2020, 8:01 pm

mtbdudex wrote:LoneRider, got it, you have an agenda, your clear on that.

Come to your local MMBA meetings, get face time, show your activism in physical setting.
It’s getting old in a forum thread.


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PS: MMBA doesn't have meetings. LoneRider should go to his local MTB org meeting. For Poto, that'd be PotoMBA. While PotoMBA (and MCMBA and CRAMBA and such) are members of the MMBA, they are separate groups.
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Poto: Potawatomi

Postby mtbdudex » February 29th, 2020, 8:52 pm

c0nsumer wrote:
mtbdudex wrote:LoneRider, got it, you have an agenda, your clear on that.

Come to your local MMBA meetings, get face time, show your activism in physical setting.
It’s getting old in a forum thread.


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PS: MMBA doesn't have meetings. LoneRider should go to his local MTB org meeting. For Poto, that'd be PotoMBA. While PotoMBA (and MCMBA and CRAMBA and such) are members of the MMBA, they are separate groups.


Understood, I musta been remembering this Facebook posting, both our messages are the same.
Take your passions from virtual to reality. And lonerider, yes I’ve served on many mmba trail days, was VP Pontiac chapter 1998, etc, so I’ve walked the talk.
I’m encouraging you same.
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