Poto: Potawatomi

For posting trail-specific conditions and problems

Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby DynoDon » October 19th, 2020, 11:32 am

I got to ride DTE a couple times with Bob Yankus this year, at DTE, what a blast, great guy, his favorite saying was, "Highland use to look like this",, LOL
When was the first bicycle race?
When the second one was built !!!
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Robert Yankus » October 19th, 2020, 12:33 pm

Don,
Just think, someday DTE will look like Highland.
Hope we are both around to see that, huh.
Why is it the few times I rode DTE, I bumped into you riding or working? Dumb luck...

Your not half bad, for an old fart, riding that trail.

Can't tell you how many times I watched the latest Specialized video with the old guys and thought of you.
After I did my Highland 100, I could of walked away like the guy in the video. Will never top that day. It was perfection. Never felt a bump or the legs burn.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby crustaceous_flora » October 19th, 2020, 3:13 pm

Mikeyb64 wrote:If you are not a fan of what Spectrum Trails has done with the Bobcat, Walnut and Schooner Trace (Google FailBoss) in Brown County or the new entrance at Poto, you're not going to like what's planned for the trail. For me, I can't wait to have a Big Mac and a Happy Meal in the same town.


Are they going to ruin the boy scout downhill?
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby crustaceous_flora » October 19th, 2020, 3:18 pm

b_b wrote:For the record I'm good with what has been done on Brec Murray and Torn where they fixed some of the worst eroded areas with newer sustainable flow style trail but kept most of the original trail in tact and I'd expect Poto improvements should be similar situation. I like most of our trails DTE, Poto, Brec, Highland, Plra, etc. and it's nice to have these options and trails with different character.


This would be more ideal. Didn't they re route the old steep gravel climbs and then added 1.5/2 miles of new trail?
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Mikeyb64 » October 19th, 2020, 3:27 pm

The plan is to give Boy Scout Hill some rejuvenation.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby b_b » October 19th, 2020, 3:43 pm

crustaceous_flora wrote:
b_b wrote:For the record I'm good with what has been done on Brec Murray and Torn where they fixed some of the worst eroded areas with newer sustainable flow style trail but kept most of the original trail in tact and I'd expect Poto improvements should be similar situation. I like most of our trails DTE, Poto, Brec, Highland, Plra, etc. and it's nice to have these options and trails with different character.

This would be more ideal. Didn't they re route the old steep gravel climbs and then added 1.5/2 miles of new trail?

Yep and kept some too like the really steep loose rooty one on Torn around 1.5M or so. :)
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby crustaceous_flora » October 20th, 2020, 10:42 am

Mikeyb64 wrote:The plan is to give Boy Scout Hill some rejuvenation.


Sad
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby wannabee » October 21st, 2020, 2:41 pm

My 1st ride at Poto was in 1987. It has changed a lot over the years, mostly for the better. Back then it was a battle just to keep access to the trail. I sure didn't think id still be able to ride it this many years later. With time comes change. And I'll still be riding it, change or no change.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Josh McCreedy » October 22nd, 2020, 8:00 am

This. But if the attitude is that all machine built trail is bad, then there is no room for a reasonable position like this.

Similar flawed points:

"Keep the trails the way they are." Local hand-built is great for variety, and some of them will have renovated by land managers' orders. In fact, they are changing all the time (Highland, for example). Roots are dying. Sand is running downhill. Log piles are rotting out. Your favorite trail will be different next year, even if you think it's the same because you ride it every day. What doesn't change is the nostalgia for better times...when we all rode skinny bars and and 1991 geometry (my first Stumpy) and trails were "real."

The McDonald's analogy...is not accurate analysis. In fact, Spectrum's style has changed dramatically, so have their tools of choice. Machine-built trail is not all the same anymore than all hand built is the same. Not all machine-built is flow trail, wide, or smooth. In fact, Michigan is a great place to study all sorts of variety in modern trail building, if you actually get off your bike and look. You can love old school trails with out being simplistic about it.

Everyone is dumbing down the trail/making trails easier... Well, the sand piles and erosion probably aren't smoothing the tread. Roots and remaining rocks protrude more. Shoot, when trail coordinators starting using machines to trim Gruber's people even complained about that. I want to see some data. In fact, riders all over the state and country are clamoring for more difficult trails. But difficult can mean more tech features, more rock, more speed, more climbing, etc. If difficult to you is slow, tight (I heard they built a new line of just bar squeezes at Whistler :D ), and turny, cool. Other people prefer rock and chuck with speed and air mixed in. What I know is that there are a lot of highly skilled riders riding DTE to it's full potential, and they're not on here complaining.

Look, we all say variety is good. Enjoy the trails, and let's take some of the ego and emotion out of the discussion. Be willing to question your own assumptions. Take the Michigan trails survey so that we can push the DNR in a trails-positive direction. Talk with your local trail coordinator about how to make trails more challenging (CRAMBA will pay for it on their trails).

More trails. More variety.

b_b wrote:For the record I'm good with what has been done on Brec Murray and Torn where they fixed some of the worst eroded areas with newer sustainable flow style trail but kept most of the original trail in tact and I'd expect Poto improvements should be similar situation. I like most of our trails DTE, Poto, Brec, Highland, Plra, etc. and it's nice to have these options and trails with different character.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby c0nsumer » October 22nd, 2020, 11:03 am

Josh McCreedy wrote:More trails. More variety.


Hear hear. This was very well said.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby jajones » October 24th, 2020, 7:02 am

I'm not going to get into the little banter, but a few words here.

The goal with the Poto Rejuvenation project is NOT to make it a bike-optimized flow trail like DTE. It is to keep it a multi-use backcountry-style trail, but to improve it by taking away some of the crappier aspects and roached out spots that occur with a fall line trail that is over 50 years old. The Poto is not "perfect". It has many areas that can be addressed and, to be honest, are getting worse because of its condition. People are starting to make social reroutes and widen the trail because of this. Do you want a narrow singletrack Poto, our something that resembles a two-track? Do you really love plastic geoweb that much, or, the protruding rebar holding it in? Do you love the low-lying sections that are constantly muddy after rains, or, would you rather be climbing up a higher ridgeline? Don't cling to the present with memories of the past because you are afraid of the future. I estimate, conservatively, that I have over 30,000 miles on the Poto since I started biking on it in the late '80's. It is the reason I live where I do. It has been at the core of my passion for 30 years. I don't want to change the Poto experience, I want to preserve it. That said, I think most folks will enjoy the first series of changes we have for the trail coming this November. The first step is to rip out some plastic geoweb on some steep pops, and replace them not with a "McDonald's" mech cut reroute, but to keep the steep pops through improved drainage basins and armoring. Finally, you are never going to make everyone happy with change and, for some people, even if they are happy about change, they won't admit it. However, change is inevitable, especially with a 50 year old fall line multi-use dirt singletrack trail. You either embrace the change, and make it into something you want, or, you let the change happen organically and take what you are given. I prefer the former.
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DTE Energy Foundation Trail Committee, operating under the Potawatomi Mountain Biking Association
Advocacy Committee Chair, Michigan Mountain Biking Association (MMBA)
Board Member, Michigan Mountain Biking Association (MMBA) and Potawatomi Mountain Biking Association (PMBA)
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby c0nsumer » October 24th, 2020, 7:33 am

At what point is geoweb like roots and removing it is just more dumbing down of trails? <ducks>
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby jajones » October 24th, 2020, 7:46 am

c0nsumer wrote:At what point is geoweb like roots and removing it is just more dumbing down of trails? <ducks>


You kid, but you know there is "that person" out there who will make that argument.
Jason Aric Jones, Chair
DTE Energy Foundation Trail Committee, operating under the Potawatomi Mountain Biking Association
Advocacy Committee Chair, Michigan Mountain Biking Association (MMBA)
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby c0nsumer » October 24th, 2020, 7:52 am

jajones wrote:You kid, but you know there is "that person" out there who will make that argument.


This is why I'm pinning my future finances on a spray-on algae accelerant for trail bridges.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby jajones » October 24th, 2020, 8:02 am

:lol:
c0nsumer wrote:
jajones wrote:You kid, but you know there is "that person" out there who will make that argument.


This is why I'm pinning my future finances on a spray-on algae accelerant for trail bridges.
Jason Aric Jones, Chair
DTE Energy Foundation Trail Committee, operating under the Potawatomi Mountain Biking Association
Advocacy Committee Chair, Michigan Mountain Biking Association (MMBA)
Board Member, Michigan Mountain Biking Association (MMBA) and Potawatomi Mountain Biking Association (PMBA)
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