MCMBA: Proud Lake

For posting trail-specific conditions and problems

Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby ihateplaindave » July 5th, 2012, 7:54 am

"I live just above that drop, the mowed path goes to my backyard.
If you ever need help in a medical come my way rather than walking it out.davedejonge"

Now you tell us! I help carry the broken collar bone guy out. It's a long way to the road from that drop. Lots of up and down.
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby Moto339 » July 5th, 2012, 9:40 am

Thanks so much for the map. I could never figure that place out I felt so lost every time BUT I still loved the trail just could never get my bearings straight. The force was alway's with me and I always made it back just never really knew how I did allot of time's.
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby b_b » July 5th, 2012, 11:41 am

Why did a broken collar bone need a carry out? Been there done that broken collar bone dislocated shoulders busted wrist. I know it hurts, but make a sling and start walking...
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby ihateplaindave » July 5th, 2012, 12:48 pm

Actually, I pushed 2 bikes out (his and mine), but he did lean on a freind's shoulder most of the way as he was pretty shook up and had some other injuries. However, he was laughing and joking by the time we got to the road.
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MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby Redstone Liger » July 5th, 2012, 12:55 pm

b_b wrote:Why did a broken collar bone need a carry out? Been there done that broken collar bone dislocated shoulders busted wrist. I know it hurts, but make a sling and start walking...

Due to shock.
Believe it or not there are adults out there whose most significant injury in life has been a hangnail. With that as a base line broken anything feels life threatening.

On the other end of the spectrum I've seen a concussion victim with broken helmet, glasses, and bike wanting to hop back on and finish.

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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby J/C » July 7th, 2012, 5:43 pm

There's a couple trees down on Loop 1 past the gas line, along Garden Rd. I'll get them tomorrow when it's cooler. Also I will try to check out the other loops. Haven't been out on the trails for a bit because I broke my collarbone end of May. It was at Lakeshore (riding stupid and flying over the bars over a jump). I walked out but I was real fortunate two guys walked with me and helped push my bike, took shortcuts to the back entrance and gave me a ride to the ER. It hurt pretty good, up there with any other injury I've had. Anyhow it's lots better now.
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby Gfish29 » July 7th, 2012, 11:54 pm

There is also large tree blocking the really short unnamed segment that connects the campground 2 track to Glengary. This trail stems off of the 2-track that is southeast of the campground so you can get to paved path going towards Hickory Glen. Although it's not part of the loops, it is a great connector for anyone who wants to ride both Hick and Proud Lake.

I notified a park ranger-kid that I passed near the park entrance and he seemed to take it as an FYI. I didn't really expect him to run for the chainsaw anyways.

So, if anyone who has a saw is interested the tree is close to that 2-track. A very easy walk from it.
Big thanks to all of you who take care of Proud Lake!
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby mwilson7 » July 8th, 2012, 4:02 am

Does anyone have a GPS trace/map/directions for the Proud Lake to Hick connector? I'd be interested in seeing it if you did.

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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby msbusdr » July 9th, 2012, 2:00 pm

I come in peace, I really do. I am a horse rider, not so much a bike rider. I'm a Board Member of the Proud Lake Trail Riders. One of the few that tirelessly do our best to keep the trails up and usable for all. I have been horse riding these trails for over 35 years.

I felt it was important to touch base with anyone that can be reached through a site like this one who spends time on Proud Lakes trails on their mountain bikes. Or other multi use trails in Michigan, I don't think there are many parks with multi use trails.

Those of us who ride horses out there, most of us anyway, would far rather, for safety reasons not share the trails with mountain bikes. As I am sure most of you would like having your own trails as well. But the state has deemed it ok for us to share and has so far been unwilling to allow more trails to be cut to be designated as Mountain Bike Trails. So we have to find a way to co exist allowing us all to enjoy the multi-use trails and still remain safe from accidents.

Over the years we have found that we didn't run into a lot of bikes. Just some here and there and for the most part the encounters were friendly and respectful. However, this year we are finding there are a lot more bikes than in years past. We are ourselves from our barn crossing paths with far more bikes than ever. And are also receiving word from other horse riders in the area that they also are meeting up with more bikes. Just in 1 week we have received over 4 reports of near accidents due to horse and bike encounters. All have been due to speeding bikes.

We realize that we all enjoy the trails for different reasons. Some hike, some ride a bike, some like to walk their dogs. And some like to ride their horses. Unfortunately very few seems to understand trail etiquette. This is not set up by some mutual understanding, but by the laws in the state of Michigan. Horses carrying a rider are by law a pedestrian. Therefore giving a horse and rider the right-of-way on any road way or trail. However, those of us on the horses, also need to be careful of the hikers who are also pedestrians.

Last Saturday morning, An experienced rider was riding the trails near Child's Lake and Dawson.
There were 4 riders and their horses from the same barn. They were lesiurely walking the trails near the old staging area when a bike came very fast up behind them, literally putting his tire into the tail of the read horse. Fortunately this is a steady horse. He did however lurch jump forward and this commotion upset all of the horses. The biker then "told" the riders to move aside to let him pass. Which they did. The horses were all startled by this and within a few minutes after the bike passed, one of the horses who was continuing to be worried, bolted. The rider was thrown from the horse at a full run. The rider cracked her safety helmet in the back and was unconscious for several minutes. Was then transported by ambulance to the hospital where she stayed under observation for 3 days due to a concussion and nicked artery causing internal bleeding in her thigh.This could have been a deadly accident. Caused by carelessness. This accident was reported to the DNR and the DNR was present when the rider was taken into the ambulance. This was not only bad for the horses, that biker is lucky he was not kicked.

We see bikes flying through the trails regularly now. Some are actually wearing ear buds and jamming to their music. Please, please, be more careful. Not just for the horse and riders sake, but for hikers, boy scouts and your own safety as well. You need to slow down on these trails. Pay attention and when encountering a horse and rider, please, speak to the horse. Let them know you are not a predator. And slow down. But remember, the horse and rider do have the right of way.

We would like to petition the state to reconsider seperating these trails for the safety of all that use them. Besides, what horse people like in trails is not always what bikers like on trails. We like the jumps over fallen trees.

Please, help the people riding these trails to learn proper trail etiquette. Not only is it common sense to be watchful for that 1,000+ lb trail user who could kick your brains out if you ride up behind them and scare them, but also the polite thing to do. AND Michigan requires right of way be given to Pedestrians.

Lets all be safe and considerate. Slow down, look and listen. Horses and bikes don't mix. But so long as the state will not allow us more trails, let's try to avoid anymore accidents, please.

Thank you,
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Postby msbusdr » July 9th, 2012, 2:03 pm

FrankenFuel95 wrote:I tried them(the horse trails) last year and they were in my opinion, unridable. With zero trail maintenance, there's a lot of dead fall and horse crap. No fun, just aggrevation.


Zerro trail maintence? Are you kidding? The Proud Lake Trail Riders are maintaining those trails on a constant basis. When we saddle up, we have nippers and folding saws in our saddle horn bags to trim as we go.

They are however more primative than say, Kensington. If you want manicured trails, try Kensington.
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby Hermannator » July 9th, 2012, 8:29 pm

Lisa- I am glad to hear that the rider is OK. As a frequent bike rider of these trails, I agree that bikers need to be watchful and yield to horses. I have encountered horses along those trails and make it a point to step off the trail and let them pass. I also agree that we really need separate trails out there since, as you put it, horses and bikers want different things in trails. The Proud Lake trails are increasing in popularity due to their challenge, and that they are not your typical smooth trails. The comment you responded to about the poor condition of the trails was from 2005, and we can agree the trails are in much better condition now. Both bikers and horse groups deserve credit in this improvement. I would be happy to be part of any movement that equitably separates those trails, or allows for additional separated trails to exist on that great property.
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby msbusdr » July 9th, 2012, 8:52 pm

This is a response to Bill right? Anyway, thanks for the favorable response. The PLTRA has been maintaining those trails since before I joined them in 2003. And when I was in high school, our 4-H club went in and cleaned them out from time-to-time. I know you put in time on the trails, but to be honest, I have never seen another biker work on them. But I will take your word for it that they do. It is kinda the same for us tho. Seems it is always the same people from our group too. Everyone wants to enjoy them, but only a few are willing to maintain them, sad isn't it?
I know from what I hear said from equestrians in the area, they won't be willing to give up the trails we maintained and have been using as equestrian trails for so many, many years. But did say they were be willing to help cut news ones for bikes. We like the different trails, to include the yellow trail off the old staging area. A lot of riders like that one too for the up and down hill challenge it gives us and our horses. We really need to petition the state to put in more trails. Smaller parks than Proud Lake have seperated trails and more miles that Proud Lake. It can accomodate more trails.
Unfortunately the Bike Riders who NEED to read this, probably will never see it. Those who are responsible and careful already know.
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby Spinwheel » July 9th, 2012, 9:28 pm

Its way past time for Proud Lake to separate horse and bike/hike trails - even Fort Custer recently figured out how to get it done. Pontiac Lake - another good example.

I've had positive encounters with horses at proud lake many times over the years - the only negatives would be the owners who continue to poach the Kensington Connector Mountain Bike Trail, which makes no sense when a dedicated horse trail is 30 - 50 yds away. This issue with the rider "sneaking-up" behind the horse is probably an education and awareness problem. If you don't know horses, at least to some extent, then you don't know.
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby Loren » July 9th, 2012, 9:49 pm

Thank you for your thoughtful letter Lisa. While only a small fraction of Michigan mountain bikers are readers of this forum, most of the local enthusiastic riders participate and it is hoped that the rider in question reads this and reflects on what was, and what might have been.

I think that I speak for all of us when I say that I'm sorry that this event occurred, and I'm thankful that she was not more seriously injured.

I think horses and bikes can mix, but only in areas with low traffic volumes and where the soil conditions and geology will sustain the traffic and allow clear sight lines. Perhaps that described Proud Lake in the past, but no longer. Across the US a little more than 3 million new mountain bikes were sold last year, and many of those bikes and new riders have found their way to a local trail. In the few short years that I've been riding I've seen a significant increase in the number of people of all sorts using our Metro Detroit trails, as you have also observed. This trend is only going to increase. Its likely that the economy is also adding to this pressure, as more people are choosing to recreate locally rather than travel on weekends. It's unfortunate but inevitable that increased usage will result in an increase in conflicts and we all will spend more time policing behavior than we'd like.

In our other Metro Detroit area trails, separate trail systems have been created to minimize the potential conflicts between trail user groups. Highland, Pontiac Lake, and Maybury are just a few examples of state land where this separation has been largely successful.

As a chapter, we would support your call for the creation of independent trail systems at Proud Lake. Other chapters are currently doing this in other areas of the state, such as at Fort Custer where separate trails have been established within the past few months. We stand ready to design, fund, build, and maintain these trails. It's possible, the state will allow us to do this, but we need to work with local DNR management to achieve this. Getting their buy-in and support is the first step.
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Re: MCMBA: Proud Lake

Postby ihateplaindave » July 10th, 2012, 8:39 am

" I know you put in time on the trails, but to be honest, I have never seen another biker work on them. But I will take your word for it that they do."

No need to take his word for it. Proud Lake tends to get less maintenence than most MTB trails in the area (also, less MTB traffic), but I can get you a list of people like myself that have put in time on maintaining this trail.
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