Poto: Potawatomi

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Poto: Potawatomi

Postby mtbdudex » September 15th, 2019, 9:00 pm

Potowatomi trail conditions report :
Rode at 12:30 today Sunday 9/15, mostly great “Poto” conditions shape ...
However, the geo-web in a few downhill portions the sand ruts right where they ended were pretty bad and sooner or later need addressing. Water cuts thru everything.
Yes, that’s been a 20 year discussion, I realize that.
It rained light on and off from 1:15 pm, took the cut as my 15 year old was getting kinda tired, 1st time I’ve taken the cut in 10 years.

Btw, the front rock armouring [emoji1303]

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Last edited by mtbdudex on December 12th, 2019, 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby crustaceous_flora » October 19th, 2019, 11:44 am

Poto was awesome last night. The cheater lines here though are getting out of control, haha.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby DynoDon » December 12th, 2019, 4:13 pm

Rode Poto today, nice, and frozen, just sticks down, no trees, more roots cut, Michigan has Trees, Trees have roots, thats Michigan, we have hills too, do you want to cut them hills down too?
I ran into Steve out there doing survey work, on the damage, it was great talking to him, he's doing a tough job, I hope we get the ok from the DNR and some funding to make all his work count, Thanks for what you do Steve.. makes me feel bad for the little work I do.. LOL...
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When the second one was built !!!
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby crustaceous_flora » December 13th, 2019, 1:33 am

More roots cut!? Why? Like seriously who does this. There is already a ton of cheater lines there now, and more roots are cut with each year that passes. Is it the 65 year old hikers that are unable to lift their feet over a 4 inch root? Or is it the xc weenies that avoid all roots, rocks, and the 2ft drops on their 6k full suspension builds?
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby DynoDon » December 13th, 2019, 6:59 am

crustaceous_flora wrote:More roots cut!? Why? Like seriously who does this. There is already a ton of cheater lines there now, and more roots are cut with each year that passes. Is it the 65 year old hikers that are unable to lift their feet over a 4 inch root? Or is it the xc weenies that avoid all roots, rocks, and the 2ft drops on their 6k full suspension builds?


I think its newbies, but who know unless they put up cameras, about a half mile after the double bridges that cross Highland Lake Half moon connector, there is a small bridge with some roots on the other side, those are newly cut.. I mostly ride my 4 in FS 24 lb bike, and I sure don't see the problem with roots/rocks, I like the drops, I ride Sugar in 22 min and I'm 73 yrs old, you missed starva, fat bikers, cross country skiers, LOl, it could be anyone of them, the only thing for sure is they have been doing it for years, its hard to educate an Idiot. DTE may be what people ride then think everything should be smooth like that, but Highland was smooth like that once, its Michigan we have roots, they hold the trail together, the rocks do too. Skillz are harder to get then a saw for a inconsiderate IDIOT.
Steve was surveying the whole trail system, there is plenty of damage out there more from people then nature, it would be nice if they find a solution, like education, if skillz classes were free it may help, but if someone gave people a bottle of common sense, they would put it on a shelf an never use it.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby TheLoneRider » February 23rd, 2020, 8:04 pm

re:
its hard to educate an Idiot
====
'Darn near impossible in fact.

Exposed roots and rocks are a sign of out of control soil erosion
on a totally abused and thrashed out trail.

After decades of neglected maintenance,
you'd think someone would learn the difference.

But, as has been stated earlier in this thread,
"its hard to educate an Idiot".

MI DNR needs to shut the state's trail systems down
until means are established to mitigate all the
damage that has been done and existing soil errosion.

It is the only way the "mountain bike community"
will ever possibly step up.

Of course this would mean properly maintained trails,
without exposed roots and rocks. Likely no drops either.
As a properly designed, constructed and maintained
trail has none of these "features" ( other than areas
where there is no topsoil / glacial overburden / etc,
in other words, where the bedrock is naturally exposed )

So the real solution for trails of the like
the contributors to this thread appear to prefer
to ride on, would be for a private mountain bike
park.

A park where trail conditions can be fabricated
to meet the desired conditions where those who
prefer to ride on said trails can pay the real cost
for the privilege to do so.

Thus giving the trails under the public trust a break
from the damage wheeled travel over them causes.

After which may afford other groups of less "impactful" trail
users ( perhaps even scout groups ) to step up in order to help maintain
the state's trail system as they will likely not be so de-motivated
knowing their hard work will soon go to naught due to wheeled
travel trail damage.

thanks for your consideration,

--
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Leroi Brown » February 24th, 2020, 1:12 am

I smell a troll.
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End up kissing dirt
Look a little closer
Sometimes it wouldn't hurt" - INXS - Kiss The Dirt

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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby b_b » February 24th, 2020, 8:54 am

@Crustaceous I seriously doubt hikers are removing roots and rocks as it's easy enough to walk over or around. I've heard XC skiers have been known to buff a trail but no idea if that's the case here. Back when Poto was made, "sustainable" was not even in the trail vocabulary and I understand it was created for hiking and I'm sure they had no idea how popular it would become, but it is still a gem just a little worn. :)
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby TheLoneRider » February 24th, 2020, 10:23 am

re:
Leroi Brown wrote:I smell a troll.


My apologies, as I did not realize it is trolling to
imply tree roots typically become exposed without
any undue soil erosion. If our trails were "healthy",
there would be no exposed rocks nor roots. Features
providing similar riding challenges would only exist
in areas specifically designed and constructed for
such purpose, not on a general purpose multi use trail.

It will be interesting to see how the DTE sponsored
trails wear and weather. I hope they hold up and
stay smooth ("healthy"). Whatever happens with
them, it will provide a valuable reference as to how
durable trails need to be constructed in our area and
reinforce just how resource intensive it is to properly
construct (and maintain) trails with a surface that holds
up for more that a year or two.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby b_b » February 24th, 2020, 11:25 am

Yeah DTE should hold up much better since using newer "sustainable" practices and rain water should generally flow perpendicular to the "bench cut" trail rather than straight down the trail.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Wingo » February 24th, 2020, 11:25 am

It's trolling to post this in the forum for current trail conditions.

If want to open this debate, it shouldn't be here.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Josh McCreedy » February 24th, 2020, 11:46 am

At the risk of further clogging up a conditions page, your posts are full of logical fallacies and inaccuracies (e.g. smooth is healthy)

There are great places to do some reading: IMBA Trail Solutions, BLM's Guidelines for a Quality Trail Experience, etc. There are some really high-quality sources of information that all levels of the trail community use to have some common language and common methodologies. Check out americantrails.org or PTBA.org.

And if you want to get your hands dirty building or maintaining trails, you can search any of a dozen or so mountain bike groups in the area who would love to have you volunteer.




TheLoneRider wrote:re:
Leroi Brown wrote:I smell a troll.


My apologies, as I did not realize it is trolling to
imply tree roots typically become exposed without
any undue soil erosion. If our trails were "healthy",
there would be no exposed rocks nor roots. Features
providing similar riding challenges would only exist
in areas specifically designed and constructed for
such purpose, not on a general purpose multi use trail.

It will be interesting to see how the DTE sponsored
trails wear and weather. I hope they hold up and
stay smooth ("healthy"). Whatever happens with
them, it will provide a valuable reference as to how
durable trails need to be constructed in our area and
reinforce just how resource intensive it is to properly
construct (and maintain) trails with a surface that holds
up for more that a year or two.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby TheLoneRider » February 24th, 2020, 1:47 pm

Wingo wrote:It's trolling to post this in the forum for current trail conditions.


Please excuse me, I did not realize the thread was being hijacked.

I did not see "Current" in the thread's title,
and by the previous few posts before my initial
post in this thread, I gathered that the "Poto" is
generally in poor shape and that there is an on
going discussion within this thread ( I was not
about to start at the beginning of the thread).

Wingo wrote:If want to open this debate, it shouldn't be here.


I'm open to continue the discussion in a new or other
existing thread.
Or perhaps such discussion does it not even belong within
MMBA forums at all?
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby TheLoneRider » February 24th, 2020, 3:06 pm

Josh McCreedy wrote:At the risk of further clogging up a conditions page, your posts are full of logical fallacies and inaccuracies (e.g. smooth is healthy)

I'm not sure I made any logical arguments
so much as just attempting to express some opinions?
( if any semblance of a logical argument appeared, it may be due to improper use of a word or few )

I generally would say a trail that stays smooth is "healthy".
Would you say a trail that is bumpy, with exposed
roots and rocks, run-off channels down the middle
is healthy? I would not. I would say it is [unnecessarily] bumpy
and in poor "health".

BTW
I entirely agree that roots should not be shaved or whatever.
When a multiple use trail's conditions reach that point,
restoration is due, perhaps even closure until restoration
can be afforded.


Josh McCreedy wrote:There are great places to do some reading: IMBA Trail Solutions, BLM's Guidelines for a Quality Trail Experience, etc.
There are some really high-quality sources of information that all levels of the trail community use to have some common language and common methodologies. Check out americantrails.org or PTBA.org.


I've been on many of those websites and others,
and gone through many a good article.

e.g.
SAGE Trail Alliance out in Santa Barbara
has some awesome resources -- I like that the
organization attempts to bring all trail users
into consideration -- I think I came across something
with the Clnton River Group where they are considering
re-branding in this sense ( though it seems more of an
expansion in scope of whom they represent, as rebranding
is usually just a change in the marketing message while
still pursuing the same agenda)


Josh McCreedy wrote:...all levels of the trail community use to have some common language and common methodologies....


While I may not have picked up much on the in-group vernacular,
in general I have not seen much of the methodologies in practice
on the numerous trails I have experienced in Michigan.
( BTW, I am out hiking on varied trails much more often than mountain biking )
( -- I usually just hit my local trails with the mountain bike )

Josh McCreedy wrote:And if you want to get your hands dirty building or maintaining trails, you can search any of a dozen or so mountain bike groups in the area who would love to have you volunteer.

Not that I would not lend a hand if I saw a group of volunteer
needing an extra hand, honestly, I would just rather pay to have
the trails taken care of, some kind of program(s) much like the
state has for snowmobiles and OHV's could be a good start,
and of course private mountain bike parks have an ever
expanding potential to meet the desires of the mountain
bike community.

sincerest regards,
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby TheLoneRider » February 24th, 2020, 3:15 pm

b_b wrote:Yeah DTE should hold up much better since using newer "sustainable" practices and rain water should generally flow perpendicular to the "bench cut" trail rather than straight down the trail.


Thanks for all the awesome input.
From what I have gathered, it sounds like I would enjoy
the "smooth" trail conditions at DTE much more than the
thrashed out trail condition of the "Poto".
Coming from the east side, the little bit of extra
distance to get out to Waterloo sounds totally worth it.
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